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Author Topic: Future of Australian Football  (Read 3327 times)

Orange Emperoar

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2017, 11:56:50 AM »
We aren't losing to our peers. We are more than holding our own in our group with traditionally strong rivals like the UAE and Iraq falling away. We haven't been beaten in 16 qualifier matches. Unless here is something to play for, it is hard to see how a system is working, because the drive of the players is different. This is precisely the time to test the players in a new system that you are banking on long term.
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coast

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2017, 12:31:17 PM »
We aren't losing to our peers. We are more than holding our own in our group with traditionally strong rivals like the UAE and Iraq falling away. We haven't been beaten in 16 qualifier matches. Unless here is something to play for, it is hard to see how a system is working, because the drive of the players is different. This is precisely the time to test the players in a new system that you are banking on long term.

Seriously?  A WC campaign hanging in the balance is the best time to try out a new system?  When the team obviously lacks players with the skillset to make it work?

And then to persist with it when it is falling apart all over the place?

Good luck with that.

Chico Raul

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2017, 12:35:42 PM »
Having watched the Brazil game I am no less worried than after the Saudi game, but I am backing Ange to ensure we do the best we can.
I had a look back at the 2014 squad (the one that lost three games although put in some creditable efforts against Chile, Holland and Spain) and the current squad contains about half of those players. Since then Ange  has brought in players like Mooy, Rogic, Smith, and Juric who all look better than players they have replaced. 
After what has been a long list of draws I can't fault Ange for trying to change the system. Because the old one was not doing great.
All credit to Ange for at least trying to find a system which works better, even if the signs are that it is not really working as yet.
All credit to Ange for trying to talk up the team's prospects because anything less would be him not doing his job.
What else is he supposed to do? Run up the white flag before we even get there?
And all credit to Ange for casting the net the as wide as possible to try to find some decent players.
The sad fact of the matter is that we simply do not have players of the class that Brazil has; or Germany; or Chile etc. That is not Ange's fault.
And we do not seem to have the forwards capable of incisive counter attacking that the Saudi's had. Again. That is not Ange's fault.
And our defending seems accident prone ( the Bailey Wright turn over and the Hrustic attempted intercept that went horribly wrong for example)
So where are the players that can come in and do a better job? Because I don't see any.
Certainly none playing at Liverpool, Barcelona, Chelsea, Bayern Munich, PSG, Juventus etc etc. Which is what we faced v Brazil.
By comparison, Ange has F*** All to work with but at least he is not blaming the quality of the players.
I really think we are unlikely to win a single game in the Confederations Cup; quite likely to get spanked; but none of this is down to Ange.
Anything better than that will most certainly be down to Ange who is laying down the challenge to his players and trying to instill confidence.
I would agree with the above but the elephant in the room is that AFAIK Ange is walking away from the post after the World Cup. At the moment it feels like he's trying to create a cosmic shift in our football persona but is only gonna see it a part of the way through.. That's not really a positive legacy IMO
The roots of the problems with Australian football and the quality and types of footballers we produce go far beyond what Ange can fix.
He was coach in the 2014 World Cup. He hopes to be coach at the 2018 WC if we can get through. ( Lots of permutations still there in terms of qualifications).
And should we get there he hopes to do as well as we did in 2006 or better. Which I think means get a result against a "big" team.
He has set out a challenge to Australian football, but is ahead of the times, and we need the development systems to catch up. It is almost a case of wrong place/wrong time for Ange.
A key part of his approach is to adopt a fearless approach, to not be intimidated, to challenge each player to be the best they can possibly be, and not to die wondering.
He has been criticised for changing the formation. What he is doing is trying to position the team to be able to adopt different formations as required according to circumstances. As other teams do.
He has a job and a half because we do not have a squad of top class players. Nor do we have anyone in attack  who is world class. For years our best avenue (almost our only one) has been to get the ball to Timmy.
Timmy is getting on now and not the threat he was. I really don't see anyone in the squad who is world class.
So whilst Leicester overachieved for example, and won the EPL with a handful of top class EPL players and a very effective get it to Vardy approach, the Socceroos really don't have a go to player to build a squad around.
So our best bet IMO is to be capable of varying formations and play with confidence. Give it our best shot and for once in our lives maybe get lucky.
The Confederations Cup is important but mainly because it gives us chance to learn and develop as a squad. But the Japan qualifier is the next  critical game. 
Whilst we lost 4-0 to Brazil (could have easily been 6 or 7) hopefully our players got much more out of the experience than the Brazilians.
The Confederations Cup is another chance to expose our players to top quality opposition and become the best they possibly can.
If we can do well at the WC and maybe get a result against a top team that will be Ange's legacy and a major step on the journey.

CR, with all due respect, you seem to be conflating fearlessness with tactics.  The problem with Ange is the late and ill considered switch to a back 3.  We simply do not have the quality in our CBs to play this formation.  The results have been markedly unsatisfactory, to say the least.  Ange can be fearless in a 433, and was. 

We all saw his stubborn streak with Brisbane:  remember, plan B is to do plan A better.  It was a problem then, but has been magnified 10 fold now, at this higher level.  I simply don't think he has the tactical intelligence for international football, and his mule headedness and refusal to admit the possibility of error is now sending us up the creek without a paddle in sight.

His arrogance is something to behold.  That 'go hard' nonsense simply made him look like an idiot.  He needs to show some dignity and poise.
I agree about the quality of our CBs whether we play four or three at the back. But my take with the change of formation, is I think Ange is trying to give us options and it takes time for players to get used to it.
I would really hope that we end up being capable to play with three or with four.
I really don't think Ange is arrogant. I think he is trying to challenge the team to step up a notch and trying to give them confidence.
As I said at length, I really don't think we have the quality to make his dream come true with this generation, though if we get a bit luckier than we have been, we can surprise a few.
Even against Brazil, Cahill should have equalised although there was a dodgy off side call. That is what I mean about us getting lucky next time. We would have lifted another notch.
As for the comments re Brisbane, he won two titles. Unfortunately he then moved to Melbourne and we never got to see the next chapter.
Just as importantly, his influence lead to a big improvement in standard in the A League in my view.
And with the Socceroos he won the Asian Cup.
So let's give him some credit and respect.
By the way, I heard Germany (arguably the most methodical and best prepared) country are coming to the Federations Cup and blooding a lot of new players. Point being, that all national coaches have to keep looking beyond the next few game with the prize being the WC and try stuff out.

Finsta

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2017, 02:20:57 PM »
I think it's a bit of column A and a bit of column B.

There's definitely a lack of top quality Aussie talent running around. On the flipside, Ange's shift from a solid 433 platform that the players were used to is a pretty big call considering the current stakes.
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Septic Bladder

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2017, 02:56:16 PM »
I stand by my comments re the switch to 3/4/3 but have to say the problem isn't specifically with our 3 defenders, but rather the ability of the middle 4 to both attack and defend.

Under  Ange's aggressive approach they are too attack orientated and don't offer sufficient screening - that is why everyone in just waltzing straight through the middle against us.

Jedi's loss isn't. Hopefully a more mobile Milligan will screen more effectively.

I do admit our ball skills and retention are poorer that most opponents. I wounder - is it possible to teach players new skills through some sort of intensive training - if time for that was ever possible.

We need to develop more one touch skills, play faster in a more fluent style ( ...that is all, just that really, I don't want to over burden the players)

Orange Emperoar

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2017, 03:24:15 PM »
We aren't losing to our peers. We are more than holding our own in our group with traditionally strong rivals like the UAE and Iraq falling away. We haven't been beaten in 16 qualifier matches. Unless here is something to play for, it is hard to see how a system is working, because the drive of the players is different. This is precisely the time to test the players in a new system that you are banking on long term.

Seriously?  A WC campaign hanging in the balance is the best time to try out a new system?  When the team obviously lacks players with the skillset to make it work?

And then to persist with it when it is falling apart all over the place?

Good luck with that.
Which game did we lose using the new system? Which game did we lose that is putting our qualification at jeopardy? You do realize that both Japan and KSA are in danger of missing out on qualifications with another slip up, don't you? You do realize that after qualification we have another competition to attend to at which our opponents will be much better than what we are facing now?
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coast

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2017, 03:26:05 PM »
We aren't losing to our peers. We are more than holding our own in our group with traditionally strong rivals like the UAE and Iraq falling away. We haven't been beaten in 16 qualifier matches. Unless here is something to play for, it is hard to see how a system is working, because the drive of the players is different. This is precisely the time to test the players in a new system that you are banking on long term.

Seriously?  A WC campaign hanging in the balance is the best time to try out a new system?  When the team obviously lacks players with the skillset to make it work?

And then to persist with it when it is falling apart all over the place?

Good luck with that.
Which game did we lose using the new system? Which game did we lose that is putting our qualification at jeopardy? You do realize that both Japan and KSA are in danger of missing out on qualifications with another slip up, don't you? You do realize that after qualification we have another competition to attend to at which our opponents will be much better than what we are facing now?

We'll have to agree to differ on this one. 

Orange Emperoar

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2017, 03:28:53 PM »
But you do know that we haven't lost in 16 qualifying matches, right?
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Finsta

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2017, 03:46:15 PM »
But you do know that we haven't lost in 16 qualifying matches, right?
I don't think that's right. We lost to Jordan 2-0 away back in October 2015. Looking like we're at about 13 unbeaten now.
The recent 4 draws in a row (Saudi Arabia, Japan, Thailand and Iraq) is what has made our direct qualification situation a bit nervey.
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Chico Raul

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2017, 03:52:05 PM »
Here's a bit of a read on the subject from the ABC.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-16/ange-socceroos-deserve-our-trust-for-now/8623946
There is a possibility that one of Japan or Korea do not make the WC by the way.
Just pointing out that whilst we are not in a comfortable spot regarding the WC qualification, the mathematics of the remaining games throw up all sorts of permutations including a third place play off between Japan and Korea.
For us the Japan game is much more important that the Confederations Cup but if we can get a point or more, and Japan lose away to the Saudis and we beat Thailand, Japan will be the one under pressure. Anything can happen, and of course Japan can top the group.
I just wonder if the Japan and Korean coaches are getting the same stick as Ange.

Finsta

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2017, 04:03:45 PM »
Here's a bit of a read on the subject from the ABC.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-16/ange-socceroos-deserve-our-trust-for-now/8623946
There is a possibility that one of Japan or Korea do not make the WC by the way.
Just pointing out that whilst we are not in a comfortable spot regarding the WC qualification, the mathematics of the remaining games throw up all sorts of permutations including a third place play off between Japan and Korea.
For us the Japan game is much more important that the Confederations Cup but if we can get a point or more, and Japan lose away to the Saudis and we beat Thailand, Japan will be the one under pressure. Anything can happen, and of course Japan can top the group.
I just wonder if the Japan and Korean coaches are getting the same stick as Ange.

Well the South Korean manager has gotten the boot in the last 24 hours.
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Orange Emperoar

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2017, 05:02:08 PM »
But you do know that we haven't lost in 16 qualifying matches, right?
I don't think that's right. We lost to Jordan 2-0 away back in October 2015. Looking like we're at about 13 unbeaten now.
The recent 4 draws in a row (Saudi Arabia, Japan, Thailand and Iraq) is what has made our direct qualification situation a bit nervey.

Sorry about that.
One loss in 16 qualifying matches still sounds like a good record though. That's the same as Japan and one better than KSA. We need a draw against Japan to ensure qualification, or Saudi to drop points against the UAE. If they can't convincingly beat UAE, then essentially they're out of it. Before the next game against Japan we have at least 3 games against stiff opposition, whereas Japan have none. I reckon we'll be essentially qualified before we play Thailand in September and the team will be much more developed.
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Septic Bladder

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2017, 11:32:53 PM »
Here's a bit of a read on the subject from the ABC.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-16/ange-socceroos-deserve-our-trust-for-now/8623946
There is a possibility that one of Japan or Korea do not make the WC by the way.
Just pointing out that whilst we are not in a comfortable spot regarding the WC qualification, the mathematics of the remaining games throw up all sorts of permutations including a third place play off between Japan and Korea.
For us the Japan game is much more important that the Confederations Cup but if we can get a point or more, and Japan lose away to the Saudis and we beat Thailand, Japan will be the one under pressure. Anything can happen, and of course Japan can top the group.
I just wonder if the Japan and Korean coaches are getting the same stick as Ange.

Well the South Korean manager has gotten the boot in the last 24 hours.


Suppose, just suppose, the Conferderations Cup is a complete disaster. Three large losses.

Does Ange get sacked immediately?

theoworldwide

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2017, 12:06:54 PM »
Nah... we all need to realise that the only reason we are playing in the confed cup, is because ange won us the Asian cup.

Because of the cup, it's the first time ange will get the squad for an extended period of time. As a team we will improve against the better opposition and will be better prepared for the remaining qualifies. It will help us play ourselves into form and iron out kinks in the new formation.


Septic Bladder

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2017, 04:18:03 PM »
Holger Osieck got the sack after winning qualification to the last WC but then getting thrashed by Brazil in a friendly.


Chico Raul

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2017, 03:09:25 PM »
This is one terrific interview.  Expires 31 July.
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/video/969905731641/EXCLUSIVE-Ange-Postecoglou-interview
I am 100% behind him and what he is doing.
I still have concerns about the quality of player available and I sense he does too. He speaks about keeping the door open for new talent.
There is a young defender coming through at Burnley getting good wraps, so there are still some untried players out there.
I really don't see Ange as arrogant. Everything he says makes sense.
Well done Lucy Zelic for some great questions.

theoworldwide

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2017, 07:16:31 PM »
Apologies for the bold.

I find his confidence really reassuring. Better than the alternative. All the coach bashing against ange is noise I don't get where it's coming from.

Chico Raul

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2017, 09:32:03 AM »
Apologies for the bold.

I find his confidence really reassuring. Better than the alternative. All the coach bashing against ange is noise I don't get where it's coming from.
I have just seen the interview with Ange on the SBS site where he was pointing out that whilst there is discussion about Germany fielding a young side, people should look at our side and do the maths.
Compare the  average. I haven't done the comparison myself, but I think Ange is making a point.
Someone asked on the site a few days ago about Ange's legacy given he will step down in 2018.
His legacy might just be the experienced nucleus of side that is around in 2022 and a philosophy of constant regeneration.
The national side must never again be denied succession planning in the way that happened in the past.
Throw in a determination to lift the level of expectation and performance, and an ethos of players continually pushing themselves. 
Check the SBS site.
I loved his reply when asked why he seems so bit prickly by a very English sounding voice. Classic Ange.

theoworldwide

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2017, 09:42:15 AM »
I'm pretty dissapointed that he'll leave so soon. The only decent replacement for him imo is gombau. Hopefully gombau is the planner successor.

Exciting though that ange plans to make it coaching abroad.

Chico Raul

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Re: Future of Australian Football
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2017, 10:01:49 PM »
After the Cameroon game apart from the obvious difficulty we had with the physicality of the opposition aided by some very tolerant refereeing, the other concern was the lack of bite up front.
This emboldens the opposition, plus as the old adage goes, to win games, you need to score more goals than the opposition.
There has been a lot of talk about the defence but not so much about how we went at the other end.
True you could say that if we had only conceded 1 against Germany, and none against Cameroon, we would have six points as oppose to the one.
But quite clearly, Ange is not building the team around a miserly defence; concede zero; score one; and that is all you need.
He is loading midfield where our strengths appear to lie, and talks about being brave; aggressive; taking the game to the opposition.
So what is happening about attack?
After the Cameroon game, I asked the question about why Troisi came on and not Macca? We needed three points, and not a draw.
Ange (who as everyone knows, I have great respect for) surprisingly (to me at least), continued with the lone striker against Cameroon,  and resorted to the get the ball to Timmy approach of old. "Old" perhaps being the salient point.   
I came across this piece on the ABC.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-23/how-the-socceroos-can-get-their-spark-in-the-post-cahill-era/8644944?section=sport

......Australia had plenty of the ball against Cameroon, but very little of it in the attacking third, or even in the attacking half.

So how about this ? play two strikers.

Partner Juric with Maclaren at the expense of that third attacking midfield role. Let Maclaren stretch the defence, as he does so well, with runs in behind and into the channel.

Get some width through his runs, and give the likes of Rogic and Mooy a target to hit with some well-timed through balls. They have the ability to thread those passes, but it's largely going to waste with a static striker and a sea of bodies in their immediate vicinity.

Juric can still play the same role as a focal point, but will no longer have two defenders on his back at all times. The wing-backs can still get up and down as they normally would, but they might have somebody in an advanced position to work with, rather than having to look backwards whenever they get forward......... < end of quote>

We go into the Chile team needing to score and win by at least two or more. Even if we can avoid a spanking we need to score. What better time for us to be bold.
I rather like the idea of two up front. Someone who is a goal  scorer to feed off Juric's strength on the ball.
Consider how the game might unfold if say Australia goes two up in the first 15 minutes as oppose to what seems more likely, Chile is two up in the first 15.


 

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